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Q: Was this under the Atomic Energy Commission?
Ross: This was when I was director of the Laboratory of Nuclear Medicine and Radiation Biology at UCLA. I felt certain obligations to try to be sure that our citizens knew something about the risks and the hazards and the benefits and the cost-effect ratio, et cetera. There wasn't very much enthusiasm to hear about that kind of thing.
Q: What was the main emphasis that you placed on discussions of atomic energy at the Geneva conference in 1955?
Ross: I think we had three or four papers. We had one on the treatment of leukemia and polycythemia rubra Vera with radioactive phosphorus. We had another one on thyroid diagnosis and therapy with radioactive iodine. I presented some information about the kinetics of hematopoiesis, and we had a paper on potassium metabolism. We had detailed manuscripts that were submitted and published in English, French, Russian, and Chinese. They had, interestingly enough, translators that translated all these papers simultaneously into these other languages. The translators got along fine except the Soviets. They have to use so many more words to say what we say in a word or two, that the translators were always gasping for breath.
[end of tape four; beginning of side one of tape five]
Q: Dr. Ross, I was wondering if you could expand a bit upon the Atoms for Peace Mission in South America. Could you talk more about the particular programs that were suggested to the Latin American scientists that you approached?
Ross: As I mentioned, the primary interest of this government, I think, and of the other governments was in nuclear power development. There were engineers in our group, primarily heat exchange engineers who'd had experience with nuclear power generators. That's what the Latin Americans mostly were interested in.
As I commented, the medical activities, although they were fascinating to me and the physicians with whom we met, really weren't of any tremendous interest to the governments of those countries who didn't have a hell of a lot of money to spend on health things anyhow and probably should have used what money they had in more rudimentary and more fundamental things, such as cleaning UP their water supplies, than in nuclear medicine. However, we did attract considerable interest and support from the physicians with whom we met and considerable interest in young physicians who wanted to come to the USA and learn about nuclear medicine.
The nuclear power development--I don't know how many reactors were developed as a consequence of this mission. There was already one in Venezuela that was run by a dictator. There was already one under development in Argentina, which was also under the aegis of a dictator. They were much interested in this in Chile, because Chile had certain deficiencies in its available power; also interest in this in Columbia, but not so much in Venezuela, which really had a rather underdeveloped industrial activity, and in Peru, also, which is primarily an agricultural country. However, there was stimulation of interest and these countries all now have nuclear medicine activities and nuclear medicine physicians. How much they do, I confess, I don't know. I haven't been there for a long time. It would be interesting to have an assessment to see what came about as a consequence of these "Atomos para la Paz" missions!
As I say, I think the primary purpose of these missions was political. It kept the Soviets out, it got us in, and that is certainly worthwhile.
Q: Were you politically briefed before the trips to stress the political aspects of the mission itself?
Ross: Not in the one to South America, but certainly the one I made to the Soviet Union. We had a whole day's briefing before we went and a whole day's debriefing after we got back. This was not inappropriate. They warned us about such things as microphones and telephoto lenses in bedrooms. They warned against any involvement with people who might compromise us. I was amazed that, indeed, attempts were made to do this. I was awakened at two a.m. one morning by a knock on the door and there was a perfectly gorgeous lady outside who wanted to invite herself in. I don't think it was just, necessarily, the briefing I got not to accept her invitation, but I declined it. This happened to two others of our mission, too. They all declined this invitation. But we were told that undoubtedly there was a telephoto lens directed in the room and anything we did would be recorded and might be used disadvantageously, not only to us but to our government.
The other briefings that we got when we went on the mission to the Central Treaty Organization were nothing like this. We weren't subjected to that kind of surveillance there. They were very friendly to us. They were friendly to us in the Soviet Union, too, up to a point. I suppose you could consider that all of these missions, to some extent, were political, but they were political not in a bad sense because politics is the way that mankind lives with itself and each other. So there was nothing disadvantageous about this.
In this Latin America affair, as I say, we sort of sensed that this was a political endeavor to entrench us in South America, which we accepted, but there was nothing that was clandestine or any other adverse aspect of our visits there. The same applied to the mission that I made to the Central Treaty Organization nations, and also another mission that I made to Greece. There was no adverse political involvement.
Q: Do you recall any of the other doctors of scientists who were involved in the Atoms for Peace mission to Latin America?
Ross: There was one man named John Rouleau, R-0-U-L-E-A-U. I think that's the way he spelled his name. I believe that he was a representative of the State Department. The man who was chief of the mission also was a representative of the State Department. There also was a representative from the Atomic Energy Commission. I was the physician member. There were agricultural members. There was also, as I commented, a heat-exchange engineer who had had dealings with nuclear power generation. Also, there was a biochemist who had interest in this. I cannot, at this time, remember their names, except for John Rouleau, who I've maintained contact with. Over a period of time, I might be able to recall these. Some place I've got the report in which they're all listed. If we edit this thing, I might try to provide those, but right now I cannot remember these names.
Q: Were there any representatives of the commercial world who accompanied you on this?
Ross: No, this was strictly a non-commercial government activity, strongly tinged with science, esoteric medicine, and good will.
Q: Okay. One last thing on the Atoms for Peace mission--were the meetings with Latin American colleagues arranged through the local governments or were they arranged through science departments or medical departments?
Ross: They were arranged by the ambassadors to these countries through the foreign ministers of the countries that we visited. It was of interest that always in this there was a general or an admiral involved in these activities.
Q: On the side of the Latin Americans?
Ross: On the side of the Latin Americans. We didn't have any military people in our group, but the Latin American military were very much interested. They recognized what the atom bomb had done to Japan and it might be that they might like to do the same thing to some of their neighbors. There was no encouragement given to that prospect from our group! But the military were there listening and they had a very avid interest in everything that went on. They were very interesting people, a very competent people, and probably as competent as anybody in their nations from the standpoint of expertise, knowledge, information, and capacity to get things done. The whole atomic energy activity, for example, in Chile was under the direction of an admiral in the navy. In Ecuador, it was all under the direction of a general. In Peru, it was under the direction of politicians. In Columbia, again, it was under the direction of a military officer.
I remember we went to visit the dictator in Ecuador and we were ushered into this room and there was this guy sitting there in a general's uniform and I happened to look around over my shoulder. There was in the balcony in back of us three soldiers with machine guns trained on us. Well, this dictator didn't last a hell of a long time. They kicked him out subsequently and we were there on more or less the eve of a revolution which displaced him. We were in the embarrassing situation of being suspect that we might try to do something to this general. I'm sure if one of us had reached inside his shirt pocket he might well have been mowed down. That was kind of exciting.
Interestingly, this dictator indicated to us that he had the most wonderful brothel that was patronized only by the members of the military forces of very high rank and, if we would like, he would make arrangements that we could be entertained in that brothel that evening, with a wonderful dinner and the full facilities of the organization. I'm afraid we declined that one, too, but we weren't suspicious that we might be implicated and blackmailed.
Q: Were the discussions that were held in the Latin American countries on a one to one basis, or were there actual conferences or symposia held?
Ross: There were symposia held. There were also person to person dealings with, in my instance, with physicians in hospitals and medical schools in which we discussed nuclear medicine. We also gave lectures to the students and to the house staff and to the medical faculties. That was very interesting. They all spoke English. There were translators there but they weren't really necessary. I didn't know enough Spanish to give a lecture in Spanish. It would have been nice if I had. They are complimented if you can talk in their own language, but I'm not that well educated.
Q: Did you make note of the status of hematology or nuclear medicine at that point?
Ross: Nuclear medicine was rudimentary or non-existent. Hematology, with few exceptions in South America, was not well developed. The exceptions were in Peru, where there was a wonderful doctor named Hurtado, who was interested in the changes that occur as a consequence of transporting individuals to high elevations. He had done magnificent studies of the development of polycythemia in people who were mining copper at elevations of fifteen to twenty thousand feet. They developed very interesting changes. Also, in Brazil there was a very excellent hematologic institution developed by Oswaldo Cruz, who was the discoverer of certain of the parasitic diseases that cause mankind trouble. This was headed by his son, who I had known in the United States, Walter Oswaldo Cruz. He had delineated the role of iron deficiency in the causation of hookworm anemia. Other than that, I would say that hematology was not very well advanced.
Q: In 1961, you were part of a health science mission to Greece and Turkey. Could you comment on that?
Ross: Yes, the membership of this mission was comprised of a physician, a professor of agronomy, a research agricultural specialist, and an entomologist, and a zoologist from the AEC. Again I would say that the primary reason for the mission was an attempt to find some way to control the Dacus fly. The Dacus fly destroys probably about fifty percent of the olive crop in the Mediterranean countries and is a terrible economic scourge. They took me, a physician, along as sort of window dressing. We arrived in Greece and we found that we had been established in a dormitory up in the top floor of the hotel since we had been announced as the Dacus team and they thought we were an athletic group. This got rectified fairly promptly with rooms for us, but I thought that was sort of funny.
The Dacus activity developed as a consequence of the belief that they could breed large numbers of the larvae that subsequently turn into these flies and sterilize them with high level ionizing radiation and then release them into the environment and the sterile males would copulate with wild female flies and thus lead to the die-out of the species of fly. This actually was implemented by the entomologist. I think he came from the University of California in Berkeley. They did do this, and I think that the political situation got so bad that they couldn't really continue with the project, which was most unfortunate because, as you know, use of this technique eradicated the screw worm in Texas as a scourge to the cattle industry. There was a good reason to believe that this also could be accomplished with the Dacus fly. However, I don't think it ever came to very much, which is too bad.
Q: In 1963, you were a member of a science mission to Iran, Turkey, and Pakistan as part of CENTO?
Ross: This was part of the Central Treaty Organization and these were the three countries in Southeast Asia and in the Middle East who were part of the Central Treaty Organization. The others were the United States and Great Britain. We went there to see what might be done to improve the situation of science in these countries. This was very interesting because the chief deterrents to science in these countries were the governments. Anything that was shipped in, for example, radioactive material or equipment to count radioactive material, or anything else, e.g. chemistry supplies for a hospital laboratory, would be held up by the import authorities of the country until it had rotted or decayed so that it was no good anymore. They gave no credence and no support to scientists. The chief problem with their scientific development was their government structure, which didn't recognize the importance of science. We called this to their attention but I don't think it made any significant change. But we had a wonderful relationship with the physicians and the scientists in those countries but they didn't control the country; the country was controlled by politicians.
It was amazing--in Dakka, which is now Bangladesh--there was a whole hospital dedicated to nuclear medicine, with something like fifteen beds. They had the most modern equipment still in the packing cases, unpacked. The beds were empty. Nobody knew how to use any of it, which was a terrible, terrible problem. The chief problem was education and manpower to do these things and there was no capacity to train personnel to operate the equipment or to use it!!
Q: What was the source of the equipment?
Ross: The Central Treaty Organization, which bought it from Britain, and from the United States' manufacturing companies, and shipped it over there at great cost! But nobody knew how to use it!!!
Q: In 1966, you pointed out that you were part of a group that went to the Soviet Union to discuss tracer applications. Could you expand on that?
Ross: This was an interchange between the United States Atomic Energy Commission and the Soviet agency for Atomic Energy. Our interchange was part of the relationship and we were all physicians. There were four members of this group. One was Dr. Charles Dunham, director of the division of biology and medicine of the U.S. A.E.C. Another was a radiologist Hymer Friedel, a professor at Western Reserve, who spoke a little Russian because his father had been a translator in St. Petersburg once upon a time, and Hymer was born there. He fascinated the Soviets. Another one was Paul Harper, a professor of surgery at the University of Chicago who had developed the application of certain esoteric radiation sources for inserting into tumors. And I was the fourth member. We had a marvelous time. We met many, many Soviet citizens who treated us wonderfully on a one to one basis, but when they sat in a conference room with all their conferees around they were the most stony-faced, hard-nosed people that you'd ever expect to see. They wouldn't speak in English, although they could speak English perfectly between just the two of us. In formal conferences everything had to go through a translator. I remember at the conclusion of the conference, our leader, Chuck Dunham, said, "Well, I hope we can visit with you again," and the answer was, "Not until you stop bombing North Vietnam." They said, "We're not going to have anything to do with the United States until they stop this incursion of the poor peoples of the world.'' That was the end of our conference. It was completely uncalled for, which was very sad.
Q: Was the discussion on tracer applications?
Ross: Yes, and also from the standpoint of therapy. They had the most amazing therapeutic machines using radioactive materials that I have ever seen! They were a reflection of the engineering that went into the space enterprise. They were about the same size and the same massive construction, but they were really not very sophisticated. For example, they had a portable radiation source that they would pull into the operating room and radiate an organ that was still exposed by surgical procedure. Well, there wasn't really much indication for that, particularly in an operating room in which flies were circulating around the operating table! But that was the level of development that we saw when we went to the Soviet Union at that time. Our interrelationships with the doctors that did this were wonderful. They appreciated the fact that there were lots they needed to learn but they weren't really in a very good position to do so. We also went to Obinsk, which was their so-called atomic city, there they have built a whole great big hospital for nuclear medicine activities, elegantly equipped and maintained! As I remember, they had something like two hundred beds just for nuclear medicine. I don't remember how many of the beds were filled but quite a number were. They were treating thyroid disease, polycythemia, rubra vera, leukemia, and solid tumors. They also had a huge building that was dedicated to radiation biology--the effect of radiation on plants, on animals, on bacteria--and many of the people there were really very sophisticated. They were very anxious to establish contacts with us, very anxious to learn anything we had to contribute and to convey what information they had.
I remember one of these old gentlemen had a considerable reputation as a geneticist and he gave me a whole set of his hooks in the Russian language. When I came back I gave them to the UCLA library. He had been awarded a special recognition by the United States government and they wouldn't let him out of the country to collect it. I think it was the National Academy of Science wanted to honor him. They wouldn't let him receive it!!
Q: Do you recall his name?
Ross: Not right now. I’ll have to think about that.
Q: Was there discussion at this point about problems of--once again, safety--the hazards of--
Ross: Not much, not much.
Q: Okay. In 1963, you participated in an International Atomic Energy Agency panel on erythrocyte survival in Vienna. I was wondering if you could comment on this.
Ross: Yes. This was relative to the work that we had done in World War II in the preservation of blood. The conference wasn't just limited to that, but it was felt that the development of blood banking, the capacity to collect and store blood for reasonable lengths of time in many of the countries of the world was subject to much improvement. That was considered, but there also was consideration of hemolytic types of anemia and what might be done to investigate these diseases and hopefully to find better ways of treating them with tracer approaches. It was an interesting conference. There were many physicians from the Third World countries. I don't think it ever eventuated in anything very concrete, unfortunately.
Q: You also participated in an International Conference on Nuclear Medicine, once again, in Vienna in 1974.
Ross: Yes, that was a more fruitful conference. It was dedicated to trying to improve the teaching of subjects relating to isotopes, nuclear medicine, and the protection against the adverse effects of ionizing radiation. Again, there were representatives from many, many nations, including the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. They were very nice gentlemen. They were very interested in what went on. They didn't say ever very much, but I think they learned a great deal. There the whole idea of curricula that might be used to educate medical students, college students, physicians, and so forth, was considered and developed and recommended.
That's a perfectly wonderful place to have a conference and a meeting. Eileen and I stayed in the Hotel in Palais Schwartzenburg, which is an absolutely marvelous hotel. Vienna is one of the best dining places in the world. It also has very good beer. Eileen and I had a marvelous time in addition, hopefully, to contributing something to the I.A.E.A. in its educational enterprises. We had opera tickets. We had tickets to the symphony. And it was just before Christmas, which is a wonderful time to visit Vienna. I can recommend it to you!!
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